Alexandra Fine: Co-Founder of Dame Products on sexual wellness and taking the MTA to court over ad censorship.
Alexandra Fine is the Co-Founder and CEO of Dame which launched in 2014 after joining forces with Janet Lieberman, an MIT-trained engineer. Dame is a woman-powered company in every way and that’s why you’re hearing this story during March 2022 which is also Women’s History Month.
Al is a lifelong student of sexual health, having earned her Master’s in clinical psychology with a concentration in sex therapy from Columbia University. A Forbes’ 30 Under 30 awardee, Al has transformed her role as a CEO into one of a dedicated activist for women’s health, gender equity, and prioritizing pleasure.
On the show, Alexandra talks about sexual wellness, closing the pleasure gap, non-binary perspectives, The Sims BDSM, and a ton more. Our conversation is mostly focused on Dame’s three-year-long court battle against the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Their historic triumph over the MTA validates both the existence of the woman-owned company as well as of female pleasure and wellness. Ensuring that company has the right to advertise on subways, buses, and commuter rail. Places that have long welcomed male-focused brands like Ro (Roman), Hims, as well as breast enhancements, and more. This is a big deal since the MTA transports over 11 million passengers a day. That’s a lot of customers. This is also a giant win for free speech and anti-censorship. Congrats to Dame Products and the team.
Transcript
Yulia Laricheva 00:05
Hey friends, welcome to another episode of dream nation love. I'm your host Julia. Today on the show I interview l fine. She's the co founder and CEO of damn products theme started in 2014 when she met Janet Lieberman, and Jana is an MIT trained engineer. So these toys are awesome. Now, I didn't have any programming planned for Women's History Month. I haven't had any programming actually, for the whole year, because they've just been moving really, really fast. And there's been a lot of stuff happening. But I decided to switch to podcasts around and put this podcast. But this podcast in Women's History Month slot, which is March, this is why you're hearing it now. And it's mostly because they won a three year old court battle that they waged against the MTA. And this is a really big deal for women's rights in the way because the MTA has always had advertising on it for years. My friend's company row Roman has been advertising, erectile dysfunction for quite some time. Now. They plastered all of GrandCentral with it. breast enhancement companies get to advertise on the MTA plastic surgeons, lots of different companies. And it only makes sense that Dame can place their ads on the subways, well, their ads are really beautiful. If you check them out. They're absolutely gorgeous. They're like little pieces of art that deserve to be at MoMA. And this is a podcast about women's rights. So I hope you check it out. And I hope you share it with a friend and send it to a woman in your life that you admire and would get a kick out of the show. Have a great day. Hello, hello. Hello. Welcome to the show. How are you?
Alexandra Fine 01:45
I'm wonderful. Thank you for having me.
Yulia Laricheva 01:47
Oh, thank you for being on the show. I wanted to start at the very, very beginning, which was what was your dream as a kid?
Alexandra Fine 01:54
I definitely had big dreams as a kid. I wanted to do everything from like, acting and dancing, if I love performance toI don't know, just I mean, I just wanted to be somebody I've also wanted really wanted to be a talk show host. That was something that I thought would have been really fun. And then I wanted to be a therapist. So all of that.Just I want to make impact. I feel like that I I always knew I wanted to do it was probably the only thing that was really consistent.
Yulia Laricheva 02:30
Great. Well, I can see a theme talk show you guys can have powered by your own products like Alien, isn't it?
Alexandra Fine 02:38
Yes, I think that we could do whatever we want. I do think that could be a fun thing to do also, like content as just a part of E commerce is becoming more and more of a real thing.
Yulia Laricheva 02:50
It is it is and there's so many options. Now there's like, you know, digital shopping that's coming and just, there's some in like VR, it's like, oh my gosh, migrators in VR, like augmented reality, and all that tech, you know, like wearable tech and everything that that is possible that's coming soon in the metaverse.
Alexandra Fine 03:09
Definitely, I think like for me, I we like we take a human centered design approach to our products. And I also like to apply that to the brand. But I am also to be honest, people really just want to connect with their bodies like a lot of like, they don't want super tech enabled products. That being said, I do feel like the creativity and what could be in the future based on new technologies is really exciting.
Yulia Laricheva 03:38
But yeah, we'll see. It's like another level of censorship, right? How much is meta gonna give to sexuality? You know, Facebook has been so I guess, sensory, what's the word? Like sensory? They they really been censoring? Advertising, right? They censor Instagram advertising, they censor Facebook advertising? And once you get into the metaverse, what is going to be allowed? What kind of sexual contact is going to be a lot when you get into Sims. Everybody was having like orgies and Sims, you know, like you go into the metaverse without being sexual and like sexuality, essentially huge part of us. So I keep on thinking, how's that gonna impact your business?
Alexandra Fine 04:24
Can we just talk about the Sims for the next 45 minutes? I love, I love and I think that's such a great point too. And also like people make all these modifications on Sims two and there's like BDSM like, there's a lot of sex and Sims. Yeah, I think it's it's can be a little scary. I mean, I think at the end of the day is on humans are always going to need need and want to have sex with each other. And they think I'm hopeful that we continue to create spaces that are for sex, other spaces, and can also continue to push. And just society in general to understand what like sexual wellness is a different from sexual content in our advertisements, because I feel like there's a lot of nuance that is really important that we have been able to discuss sexual health, sexual wellness, sexual pleasure, as a part of the sexual experience in like a straightforward, Frank, calm way. Without being arousing, I think that's really important in order to fight sexual harassment and in order for everybody to claim their sexual pleasure to know that it is available, and a part of a healthy life.
Yulia Laricheva 05:53
Well, those are the big points with MTA when they were going against your court case, they were saying that like this, your ads might turn people on on the subway —
Alexandra Fine 06:01
And we actually didn't really say that that much. And I think that that is because like, I think there was some concern around that. I know that them I believe that the Museum of sex ads on like, the buses did cause some issues, and in the Museum of sex that I think had had people like jumping on boobs, like this. And they've had so much more sexually explicit imagery as art. And that's kind of I think, how they, you know, work their story to be allowed on the MTA. Yeah, that is like, I've seen so many jerk offs on the subway, it was one of the worst experiences of my life. You know, it's definitely not, you know, I know about the high though it was not ideal. It was crazy is weird.
Yulia Laricheva 06:54
But you know what that's like every woman's initiation into being a true New Yorker, you're not a true New Yorker until you've cried on the subway. And until you've seen somebody jerk off.
Alexandra Fine 07:02
I would like for the definition of New Yorker to be removed from like, experience things that are like that, though, you know, that shouldn't be the case. And I feel like also my app. And I think that my app actually helped diminish that experience, because we're here talking about it. We're here right now to know what's right and what's wrong when it comes to sex. Not saying that sex is all good, all the time. And, yeah, my advertisements, if you go and look at them, they're definitely not. They're not arousing in that way. Really beautiful. And there's so many other ads on the subways that use sex, we use sex all the time to sell products.
Yulia Laricheva 07:43
I was gonna say your ads are so beautiful. They're really like artwork, like I'm an art director and advertising. So I looked at your campaign and like, This is gorgeous, because you did it from testimonials, which is great. You like spoke to people, you pulled all their testimonials, and you illustrated them, and they're just like, absolutely gorgeous and inspiring. And, like eye catching. And I was gonna ask you, do you have an in house ad agency? Or how do you do this? We do have?
Alexandra Fine 08:10
We have We do some branding. We're around tag to its in house and sometimes just Freelancer how that the illustrator Sophie was in house.
Yulia Laricheva 08:23
It looks like a Madison Avenue campaign. It's really beautiful.
Alexandra Fine 08:25
Thank you.
Yulia Laricheva 08:26
So it's nice to see like startups doing like really beautiful work that actually like pushes the boundaries of advertising.
Alexandra Fine 08:32
Just wanted to make it a pleasurable beautiful experience, you know, and kind of tie that to the sensuality that our customers experience.
Yulia Laricheva 08:43
And you know, it kind of plays into like, you know, everything you can do with fundraising, when you have money, you can put artwork, you know, you can put money towards an illustrator, you can put money towards a team, and I know you've done a successful crowdfunding campaign. And you raised 4 million last year, which is so amazing. And, you know, again, it's having access to money, it's being able to do a product, which is crowdfunding inspired. I had a crowdfunding platform for a while we started in 2014. It was for a woman in diversity, how we kick butt like we had so many people funded over like 2 million in like a year for me. But But then my partner's got divorced. So it's been in like, hell, it's been just like in Purgatory, so I'm going to be relaunching it again, hopefully this year. It's a little harder with a baby.
Alexandra Fine 09:31
Things are harder with a baby.
Yulia Laricheva 09:32
Yeah, but I know the power of crowdfunding and I know the power of community. And since you've experienced crowdfunding and itself, and then raising three VCs, I was gonna ask you like, what is your advice for women, fundraising, and especially in the sex femme tech space?
Alexandra Fine 09:51
First of all, I would just say that crowdfunding going directly to consumers is different than going to investors, but also, I think But more important work as like, you know, going to crowdfunding is a little bit more about product market fit, or the way that I've done it in that, like, you're just trying to, not just you are validating that people want, what it is that you're creating the actual product. So nailing that first is an amazing thing to get to do if you can do it without capital, and I think men generally can do just about anything without capital. And then, yeah, for fundraising, I would say it's about resilience. Like, I think that people, I was talking to a friend, she said something to me, I was like, wait, no, I got rejected, like 100, over 100 times, like, the the lead investor that eventually invested in dame, I met them a year and a half before they sent me a term sheet. Or, you know, like, it was a really long conversation, and on and off, like, there were so many things that happened in between, and like, I think No means no, but I also think no can be, we can still talk, you know, like, keep people that are interested in your company abreast on what's going on. And you never know how things can turn out. I would say then, for people who are women remember that like, think as an entrepreneur, it's really like every pitch I did, it's always like, what could have done better? What could I have learned? And I'd like to ask that question to like, what, what's, what's stopping you from investing in a company? And the truth is, and those answers are really powerful, and you should use them and incorporate them during for your pitch. But you should also remember that like, 2% of capital goes to women, or if you're a woman of color, it's even less right, like, certainly less so. Take that. Remember that. That's real.
Yulia Laricheva 11:59
it's like point 2% For a woman of color and sex type as well, like, Cindy Gallup, has been raising money for her platform, which is, I think, a really great platform, you should find the right investors, because it's, it's Make Love Not porn, which is beautiful. And there's so many people using it.
Alexandra Fine 12:14
Yes, there are. And I think the idea of us watching real sex, versus just porn is powerful, like, really powerful. I love what Cindy's doing. Yeah, I do also think things are figured out. Like, you can just get things off the ground, you know, and get things things should move forward. Regardless of capital or can, like, progress can be nonlinear. And so much of what you end up meeting capital for too, is just like working capital and inventory. And then you get finance. It's so it really is just so expensive to run a business. Like when you were saying earlier how like, when you raise money for an illustrator that Illustrator was in house, that's always expensive.
Yulia Laricheva 13:10
Yeah, it's like keeping the servers of keeping, you know, keeping the NEF physical products, you have to think were safe, I think district and you have to think all of these things, you have to think prototypes, you have to think all these things. So it's like, it's all about raising money. And I was gonna ask you like, what was your approach to pitching investors on a success product?
Alexandra Fine 13:32
Right? Yeah, my approach was to help people realize that it's a real need. And then to show them traction. And that was something we had early on because of crowdfunding. And because of like, what, because of what we do, I think different businesses can use utilize crowdfunding more easily than others? It depends on what you're doing with physical products, I think makes sense on those platforms. So yeah, explain the need, show the market and show your attraction and why you are and can do it.
Alexandra Fine 14:19
And the statistics from what I remember was that women contribute more to crowdfunding campaigns than men. So it's like, you know, and it's interesting to see if like, men actually buy pleasure toys for their wives I talked to do because I was talking to so many women, like so many friends of mine that are trying to get pregnant, and they're like, I can't get pregnant. I can't get pregnant. I'm like, are you having orgasms? Like during sex, have an orgasm, use a toy, use whatever it takes of your partner?
Alexandra Fine 14:45
I just think that like sex and baby making should be an enjoyable experience. And I also think that like, trying to make a baby or whatever we get goal oriented, it can be really, really stressful, really cheap can really change the experience of sex. But sex is so super. It also shows why sex is super important, right? Like sex is a part of how we literally exist as humans and as a society. And that's incredibly powerful.
Yulia Laricheva 15:16
It took me like two or three months for my body to just like, relax when I was starting to have a baby because I was so like, I was working. And I was working. My job was so high stress. And I realized that I was like, so tense. So you know, and I think sexuality is a great release for pretension. And I was gonna actually ask you, what effect has the pandemic had on women's sexuality? And you guys been doing? Oh, have you ladies? Had you women? Doing research?
Alexandra Fine 15:43
Yeah, we're just more than women to date, we have sis men that work for us. So yeah, I think that actually more than just for women, the impact on the pandemic is probably been two categories. If you're in a relationship, you've had one real experience, and if you're single, you had a very different experience. And that, to me feels like the two groups that are the main experiences, I think that for people in overall I think, you know, it's decreased the amount of sex people were having, and got people thinking a little bit more intentionally about their sex. And I think overall, that will be a really great thing. But for couples you're in, you're still might be just seeing them constantly. Spaces separation, and distance helps us create the experience of desiring of wanting something that you have wanting, it's hard to want what's in front of you all the time, constantly. And so there's that. And I think that a lot of people have gotten more intentional about creating rituals, and that allow them to connect with their partner. And then I think single people, it was, it's also different now than it was then, like the beginning of a pandemic, in the beginning of the endemic age, shutdown, dating, dating really shifted, and then there was, you know, hot back summer and things like that, that, you know, may or may not have happened. And that this kind of reemergence for some people of really wanting to go out and have intimacy. But I think what was actually more, a bigger surge was a lot of people being like, I want to be really intentional with dating, and who I ended up having sex with. And that's pretty cool. I know, bumble said that they were seeing a lot of people you know, not looking for hookup culture as much anymore, and just really trying to create real connections with more intention and what they were doing.
Alexandra Fine 17:54
Yeah, I hear that from my, my younger friends who are single in New York, and they're like, you know, it's just, it's really nerve wracking sets and make sure that whoever I go meet up with is going to be worth it. And then they're just like, it's not going to be like a random, it's something that's going to hopefully lead to another hookup. So it's like there's more pressure attached to it now, which is, which is really interesting. And which also, like, makes me think of like, you know, why is female pleasure is such a taboo topic in America. You know, like, whenever we think of like, bumble has definitely changed the game. They're wonderful. We work with them before. They're really they're just an amazing company. And they really change dating habits like them. Imagine you send out a batch, because before used to meet people, but now it's like, inappropriate to hit on people. Like in real life, you can only like, technically hit on people on the internet. And, you know, like, why is female pleasure still such a taboo topic in America?
Alexandra Fine 18:54
There's a lot of reasons and I think it's a taboo topic for lots of people. And not just women, though, there is a special intersectionality of women sexuality for sure. And, and I think it has a lot to do with religion. I think it has a lot to do with the consequences of having sex. And fear over joy. That's, so those are my simplified reasons for it.
Alexandra Fine 19:24
I think so too. And I think it's also like, nobody talks about female pleasure, especially in porn, right? It's like, there's the female pleasure of like a woman moaning in a porn but like, you don't like it looks like it's like at the expense of a man and there's no like, it's the male gaze that's always been through through the ages. And it's so nice to see a company like Dame putting so much focus on the female pleasure actually making it a topic like we're actually having a podcast about it and their ads on the MTA. And you can like, this is starting conversations in different household.
Alexandra Fine 19:59
I think it's really Pool the power of marketing and branding and what it can do as far as trigger real conversations. And behavioral changes.
Yulia Laricheva 20:09
You know, speaking of the MTA, you won your battle, what was the most frustrating part of going up against such a large establishment?
Alexandra Fine 20:18
The most frustrating things that were really frustrating. So frustrated, I would say they, you know, so I knew this from pretty early on at the end of the day, MTA can create whatever policy they want to create, they just need to make sure they're being consistent with the policy and how they deploy the policy. So they rewrote their policy. And that was really frustrating. That doesn't even necessarily I'm interested to see how they implement the new policy. And exiting the policy was overall frustrating to see them change it, and I'm excited to see how that actually gets implemented and what they can do. And I can't remember the exact language of it right now. But they tried to be clear, but they knew about what they're who they're not going to work with, and included more people like cannabis companies. Which doesn't really have anything to do with the case entirely, but it's just like, Oh, they're trying to be a little bit more restrictive, potentially. Don't just interested to see how all that really pans out.
Yulia Laricheva 21:34
And meanwhile, MTA is like raising prices up every year. And they're like, putting the money on the consumer, instead of like making more money from advertisers and being more inclusive.
Alexandra Fine 21:44
I don't know that to be true, right? That they might be I think that they sell their inventory out. Generally, though, maybe not so much right now, because ridership is down. So don't know, if what their what their revenues would be like, if they were allowing all of us to do it, they might be just fine.
Yulia Laricheva 22:05
So either their financial — what like, what is the financial model of the MTA?
Alexandra Fine 22:10
I have no idea. What portion of the ads makes up for revenue? I have no idea what their p&l looks like. I'd be curious.
Alexandra Fine 22:25
If it really interesting, right? Because it's like, when you get into government things like I became are you a woman and minority owned company in New York? Did you just do that?
Alexandra Fine 22:34
I don't think we registered as that.
Yulia Laricheva 22:36
There's this thing in New York, where you can register as a woman in a minority company in your business, and you get to apply for all these grants, and you get all these like benefits. And a lot of it is working with government contracts. And like, the more I delved into it, I was like "Oh, my God, like, they need to innovate" like I work in innovation. And when it comes to innovation, you're just like, like, I was like, I like this isn't even worth it. Because there's so there's so outdated that, like, my head is gonna explode working with them. So it's like, there's this wonderful opportunity to be a woman, a minority owned contractor, but then you're like, This defeats it, I think, because there's so much red tape.
Alexandra Fine 23:13
Not surprised by that.
Alexandra Fine 23:15
Yeah. So frustrating. And I was like, oh, boy, like, here we go. And, you know, with your MTA, when you're definitely gonna open up like more opportunities for women entrepreneurs, I know, Mickey. But tishie is doing a campaign to take on the MTA as well, because they want to advertise fishy. I have one I got one after giving birth and was amazing. Like, if you had like a normal birth. Yeah, she is phenomenal. So like, Mickey was on the show a while back, too. So I'm hoping that she gets a chance to advertise fishy, because it's a really wonderful product. And there's nothing obscene about things that we do on a daily basis. Um, but I was gonna ask you like, um, you know, what opportunities would you like to see for more female women entrepreneurs coming up? You know, especially when it comes to advertising on social programs, you got your MTA went, right. But like Instagram is still not letting you advertise. Facebook is not letting you advertise, you have to go around them so many times, like,
Alexandra Fine 24:17
I think that we should be allowed to advertise on social media. And I think that, like advertisements should be based on the messaging and narrative and content. I do think that there is obscene things in the world. And that I would not like to see in advertisements that if I were Facebook, I would say this is genuinely inappropriate, like, guns maybe or, you know, depends. I think it's nuanced. But I think that they should shift from being prohibitive of items necessarily, and being more prohibitive of like, what is in the content of the ads. Like I don't think that there's anything Like, there's nothing obscene about the image of a vibrator like, unless I mean, maybe that vibrator. I don't know, it is, it is, what is socially acceptable is very fuzzy. So I would just like to see us continue to push in a direction where we can have conversations and about sex toys, acknowledge their worth and their value to so many people, and the joys that they bring, and do it in a way that feels like it's helping push forward a healthy understanding of sexual wellness and not doing anything obscene. I say that my company like is obviously a perfect example of that. And there are lots of other companies out there. And what's crazy to me, is the challenges that I have are the same as companies in menopause. And like, there are other taboo topics that feel. You know, it's like all these taboos are socially constructed. But they feel even just more targeted towards women, and more shaming of they all feel kind of shaming, but I just can't get over when I when I talk to a menopause founder, founder and menopause phase, where they're started telling me about the issues they have with Facebook, because there really shouldn't be a problem. There's not Ito or pregnancy that these things are. I think we're well past that taboo. But apparently we're not.
Yulia Laricheva 26:37
It's interesting. And it's interesting, because I think when you start looking at the investors of the companies, like when you start looking at Peter Thiel, and be like, Oh, he's one of the prime investors of Facebook, like, I can understand why like these policies are being passed. And especially when we're, it's like, who gets to play, right? Like, if more women are building technology, maybe they might be more open to women causes. But when you have people designing things that are not fully inclusive, it just makes it so much harder. And like, in a way, it's like you're holding a vibrator. And it's like, you know, I wonder if men feel like they're just going to be replaced by vibrators.
Alexandra Fine 27:09
I think that is some of the fear. And I think that they're, I think, but I don't think that there is that much fear. Like at the end of the day, over 50% of women in the US have used a vibrator. And like also Peter Thiel, his company, Founders Fund, his fun is invested in unbound? I believe so they've invested in a sex toy company. I don't know. It's interesting. And it's complex. And I don't think I don't I don't think it's just that fear, though, that fear exists. I think it's this idea of how do we talk about sex in a public forum? Like the I just the idea of talking about sex is considered to be inappropriate?
Yulia Laricheva 27:58
Well, it's not like there's a talk show that exists, that you can, like, listen to every day that we talk about all of these talk show. Now, there's not like one place that you go to, like, from, like, if you look at the lifecycle of a person, right, like, from when they're like, becoming curious, like, girls become sexually mature, like a lot earlier than boys. You know, like I, you know, speaking for girlfriends, too, you know, like I was, I was like, having feelings when I was like four or five, like, I was like, cool, cute boy, who's that, like, Oh, I like that, you know, like, where boys just seemed a little clueless until it puberty kind of hidden. And so it's like, there's a disconnect with ages. But then testosterone comes into the equation, and there's an estrogen and you get all these hormones, but like, school doesn't do a good job of educating anybody about sexual pleasure, you know, you're happy if you have a sex class, and that's very like, that is very, like, biology driven. That's like, there's the uterus, there's, you know, they're the testes, but there's nothing concerning emotions, and there's nothing concerning sexual wellness.
Alexandra Fine 29:07
That's true and to me, what's crazy about or like, what's really wild is that emotions are emotions and communication are key to adulting. We don't teach them at all. Really, maybe a little bit of comms in writing, but just like how do you have difficult conversations? How do you address your own emotions? How do you take care of your of your minds? This is at the end of the day is what makes life feel good. And I mean, don't have those conversations at all. And for me, I really do believe that sex can be such an amazing tool and path in life to realize you know, you can feel good in your body and that you should feel good and there are things you like it and things you don't like, and that that's really important to understand who you are so you can go out and communicate better in the world. and treat people well.
Yulia Laricheva 30:02
And then there's a life cycle of the sex too because it comes from like when we're growing up as a little child. And as women, our bodies change more than men, like we have all these things that we go through, we go through menopause, we give birth. So I know that like for me, like every 1015 years, like, I'm like, oh my god, I got a new body. Like, as soon as I get comfortable with my body, it shifts and I become a new person. And I think sex changes as you get older, because now I'm thinking about, like, what is sex going to be like, after menopause? What is sex going to be like? Like, in my 60s 70s? When like, my vagina dries, like the stuff that like women don't talk about? And it's like, how do we how do we show libido going with our partners into 60s 70s and 80s, which is like nobody talks about that, but like, nursing homes have some of the highest sex rates and STDs, you know, they get it on do to Viagra and all that stuff.
Alexandra Fine 30:58
Yeah, I'd sex changes throughout our body through throughout our lives. I do think that women's bodies also kind of like, I think, change more in psycho more. So there's an experience just there and having a vagina. But I also do think that's kind of like the beauty of it. Like, it becomes new in some ways, and we have to, like re approach it and re understand it, and decide if we're going to prioritize it in our lives.
Yulia Laricheva 31:26
Right? Oh, that's such a good point, right. Prioritizing sexual being, oh, that is such a strong point, right? Because some people really prioritize, and some people don't even think about it. Some people are just like asexual.
Alexandra Fine 31:37
Something I love to teach people about is like, there's two main arousal response cycles, like there's spontaneous arousal, and then there's, you can google it take the time. Spontaneous desire and responsive desire. So responsive desire is, like spontaneous desire is when you're walking around in life, and all of a sudden, you see something, whatever, you're horny, and you just spontaneously feel like, you know, it's happened to us a lot when we were going through puberty, you for no reason around, nothing. That should be sexy, and all of a sudden, you're horny, and you're like, eating dinner with your grandparents, right? Like, that's spontaneous desire, that's kind of how we come into our sexual being. And then I think, we end up often more in a responsive desire, like things, like, some body touches you in or like, your husband gives you a massage, and you kind of your body becomes aroused, because you're letting it respond to an experience. So like at the beginning, I think a lot of times, like, when you're in a committed relationship for a long time, and you're it's the beginning of a sentence, sexual experience. Deciding to just calm down for a second and let your body responds is a prioritization is a choice. And it is an equally valid way of experiencing sexual desire and having a libido.
Yulia Laricheva 33:11
I love the fact that it's Christmas season, and you spent the last few days running around the city hiding by various under trees and giving it out to strangers.
Alexandra Fine 33:18
Yeah, I was on the subway, I was mostly trying to do that around and on the subway, like getting on cars that had our advertisements on them, and just like handing it out, vibrant. So that was fun. Oh, just hard. Thank you. Yeah, I wanted to just talk to people and say most of the people I spoke to were just like, yeah, these ads should totally be allowed. I don't understand why you weren't allowed.
Yulia Laricheva 33:42
And I think it's a new century, right? It's like, why isn't this happening? And, and I wanted to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit to being non binary, I'm non binary, you're non binary, or both moms. And we're both married to men, which, you know, like, sometimes people are like, oh, like, sometimes people don't know what to make of non binary binary people. And, like, want to understand that and, you know, he's going to talk to you about being non binary, and like, competitive advantage. You know, like, sometimes, you know, do you feel like you have a way to see life from like, two perspectives, like, you know, there's two spirits in Native American culture. But me being non binary, I always felt like, I didn't really fit in everywhere. But then like, I also have two perspectives on things.
Alexandra Fine 34:28
So the way you phrase it is so interesting to me. Because I think there's just, I mean, obviously, there are so many more, so much more than just two perspectives, but I understand what you're saying. Because to me, it just also feels like well, my perspective feels different to it's my one different perspective. And that's neither feminine or masculine. And in some ways, it feels like it's both in some ways, it feels like its own thing. And yeah, do you think that feeling comfortable Being More Than a Woman has been helpful for me in even like this like I think sale? I don't know whether it's negotiating or whatever it is, I just feel like it's been here. Yeah, I think it's been helpful. It's also been really, it's been hard. And I, you know, it is hard to understand I find it hard to understand, like what this really means to me. So I don't know if I'm answering your question. So I feel like is it I always think I feel like just feeling different than someone, being able to identify within the non dominant perspective in a culture, I think can be a real advantage. So for example, I feel like one just because I think you have more empathy and compassion for when you are in the dominant culture. But when you do have more power in the space, you can more easily identify with what it's like to have less power in the space, because in other spaces, you have less power. But yeah, I don't know. So I guess I think it's an advantage in that way. And also, like for me with vibrators like because nobody considered the pleasure of people with vulva's and vaginas for so long. There's so much innovation being left on the table. I think there are so many great tool that hasn't been invented yet, that I, my team gets to go off and ponder and event because people because we because we didn't put attention to it. So there's like this real great opportunity now for my team to do something because because we were overlooked for so long.
Yulia Laricheva 36:52
It's so interesting, you bring up overlooked because I feel like, you know, I'm in this shape of a female. And I work in a very male dominant space, which is advertising. You know, being a creative director in New York, for a long time was mostly men. And I'm older, I'm 43. So when I started out, there weren't any female creative directors and then working in the tech startup space, innovation space. And sometimes I get frustrated, because they see me as just like a woman, and they feel like sometimes I'm saying thing. But like, my words don't land because I'm not like in male form. And then like, they don't really it's weird that like how people perceive you, right? Again, it's like back to stereotypes of like, okay, you're a woman, whatever. And it's like, it's, it's, I wish there was a level playing field where people just like, value your opinions versus the vessel that it was coming out up. And I think, I think that's why I do so much work for women. Because we've always had a really hard time getting our ideas through, even if they were brilliant. And especially if you're an attractive woman that gets another layer added to it as well, because that becomes a distraction. So, it's so complicated. And it's like it can have its own podcast, like, easily. And I just, you know, it's so nice to connect with more non binary people and be able to have these conversations and be like, Hi, I'm feeling this way. How are you feeling? What's been your experience?
Alexandra Fine 38:19
So do you prefer they or your pronouns?
Yulia Laricheva 38:22
She's, like a, you know, more female dominant, but it's like, you know, like, I do have like, you know, I've never looked at, you know, like, when I told my mom, I was like, Well, at first I started out in school, like I'm bi and then I was like, eventually, like non binary. And my mom's like, well, they just need to sleep with everyone. What? No, no, it's like, I'm very picky. I'm also like, very, like very monogamous like, I'm a serial monogamist. But like, it just means that like, I'm open, like, I can be married to a woman I can do marry to a man, I'm attracted to people like I'm a sapiosexual. So I'm attracted to people's minds, and I'm attracted to them as a human, I don't really see their shape, like the shape obviously helps. But like, you know, he brings the there materiality, but I really fall in love with people for like their spirits. So it's such an interesting conversation that a lot of people don't have that, you know, that should be had. I was gonna ask you, you know, what is your dream as an adult, no dream as an adult.
Alexandra Fine 39:32
To find the perfect work life balance for myself and my team. That really Pete's feasible. I know the answers like you know, it constantly changes and there are, you know, balances about a push in a pole and a constant push and pull. So I think that's hard, but that's what I would like. I mean, I don't I also, you know, I think bigger dreams too. But I'll go with that for right now.
Yulia Laricheva 40:02
Yeah, what are some bigger dreams? Do you want to share them? Or you want to keep in front of that for a bit?
Alexandra Fine 40:06
Yeah, I know that they have form yet, I just I would like to do that for more and more people, like I just want to help life be more pleasurable for as many people as I can. And I do think starting a business has been one of the most powerful ways that I can really, you know, create space and create community and create work life balance or create, I don't know, just like the change and like, as a business you like there's a government, there's all these things that help create, what your experience of life is, and your work culture is a huge part of that. So creating that has been a really rewarding aspect of my life. And I'd like to continue doing that I love to build more businesses that are successful, great places to work and innovative and also bring something new to the world and a new perspective.
Yulia Laricheva 41:07
And that's lovely. I think that's all I was gonna ask you quickly, how have you been adjusting to the pandemic, as a parent, and as a business owner, I've been like, I feel like I'm shot out of a cannon every day. I've got my husband right now, who's, who's working from home, and then my mom's been coming over, and then I'm getting a nanny. Because I'm like, I can't like my mom can't do everything.
Alexandra Fine 41:27
I think that the child childcare is really, really, it's unbelievable, if you can afford it. And then it you know, right now, my daughter's with a nanny. And it's expensive. And it was signed something like I said, I want to sit women down who are pregnant, like this is how much it costs in New York. And I want you know that because you didn't know that before. And I spent so much time on the internet trying to figure out like, what, financially it was going to look like that child care. And one I don't shouldn't just be, like, you know, the vagina hover side to figure this out. But you know, a full time nanny in New York could range it depends on how you do it if you do like a nanny share, but like, could be anywhere from like 30 to $50,000 a year plus to force and not maybe just be Brooklyn or whatever, that's when I was looking as a huge expense. But that that's how I do it. That's definitely for me, it feels completely worth it. Um, and if child's care, there are so many other ways of getting child care, but I think that that is that's the way I've been able to figure it out for me.
Yulia Laricheva 42:45
Yeah, I'm slowly going to that because I'm like, it's just, it's like, there's no book that somebody gives you. When you have a baby. There's no like, like, when I had a baby, they're like, look, and I have to feed it every two hours.
Alexandra Fine 42:55
First of all there are like 1000s of books, in case you're wondering. And I think one of the best pieces of advice for someone was don't read any of the books. It's so funny. You're like, you know, I think it's great. Like don't read the books, like there is no rule. There are no rules like, yeah, and it's such a, it's such a fun experience added I really been enjoying it. And connecting with people over in a way that I just like, I was really afraid and still am like, I still like I don't want to be I don't identify as like, the kind of parent that wants to talk about my kid all the time. I love talking about work and business and what's going on in the world and art and music and just there's so much. But it's also really nice, like to have this commonality with a whole new group of people to be a parent, or in to look at somebody else and be like, Oh, we're going through this crazy experience. We're taking this ride together separately, but together that was something I hadn't considered was just like the way the world shows more connected now to me.
Yulia Laricheva 44:15
Definitely. I agree. And I'm also looking for non very non binary mom groups, because I wonder what's going to be like a little different with that versus like the standard mom groups because and you know, more like entrepreneur groups too. Because again, you want that conversation. You're like, I've been doing products and now it's like now I'm a mom and it's shifting. So it's like and then you talk to people like you know, it's all these different conversations but I know you are super busy and it's almost gonna let you go but thank you so much for taking the time and keep in touch and play from the city or something whatever and if anything I can help you with send a shout and I love all the work that you guys that you ladies keep on saying guys, it's something I really want to change.
Alexandra Fine 44:54
I actually kind of feel seen by "Hey guys."
Yulia Laricheva 44:58
Have a good day. Bye. Thanks for tuning into the show. I hope you enjoyed it. Please share on Twitter Instagram, Facebook, a dream nation love. It's not dream nation podcast. It's dream nation love because I think my single mission in life is to teach people how to love a little bit more. And together we can save the world. So it's dream nation love, share it with your friends, have a great day and go out and make the world a better place.